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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2000-05-31 Minutes, City Commission .___._n._ ~. ---...--- MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF THE CITY COMMISSION . BOZEMAN, MONTANA May 31, 2000 ***************************** The Commission of the City of Bozeman met in special session in the Commission Room, Municipal Building, on Wednesday, May 31, 2000, at 12:00 noon. Present were Mayor Youngman, Commissioner Brown, Commissioner Frost, Commissioner Smiley, Commissioner Kirchhoff, City Manager Johnson, Assistant City Manager Brey, and Deputy Clerk of the Commission DeLathower. Sianing of Notice of SDecial Meetina Each Commissioner, in turn, signed the Notice of Special Meeting. Interview of Dotential consultant for economic feasibilitv study . Also in attendance were Mr. Sabol, attorney representing WalMart, and Mr. White, attorney representing the Westlakes, property owners. The City proposes developing another ordinance which would do the same thing the impact fees do, and it would fall under these same chapters. The City is concerned about the window of time when the impact fees might be declared invalid, and when it gets the new chapters in place. If the judge rules impact fees are invalid, the Commission meets and puts a moratorium on building permits; then they approve the new agreement and lift the moratorium. If the new system were less expensive than the current impact fee system, the disadvantage to the Westlakes would be they would be paying under this agreement rather than the revised one. Mr. White added if the City wins the litigation, the landowners pay the full amount; if the City loses, the landowners pay whatever the settlement is. Mayor Youngman stated the City needs to figure out the wording for the property owners to pay the impact fees in place, or the fees in place at the time of development. The City would give up the certainty of impact fees, but it would put anyone who annexed now in agreement with those who annex under the new agreement. She asked Mr. White for his help with the legal wording. . Mr. White said that is agreeable. If the City wins the litigation, the Westlakes pay the 05-31-2000 Special -..-.-...-...-. .------- - --.. .--- - - ---.----- -.--.'-----. .--- - 2 - impact fees; if the City loses, impact fees will be returned or the Westlakes will pay the same . as everyone else. All Commissioners agreed. Mr. White will work with staff, and they will bring back an annexation agreement. WalMart should now be able to move forward with the process, since the annexation issue is being resolved. Mr. Sabol stated that apparently he missed something in the last week or so, and he wants to make sure he is on the same page. Last Monday, when this group talked with Bay Area Economics (BAE), Mr. Sabol thought this group was going to get together, be more specific in the proposal objectives, and then get back to BAE. Then City Manager Johnson's office called and asked him to meet with the Commission to discuss ideas; so he came yesterday to do that and the Commission had already done so. Now there is this proposal, which is based on the Commission's ideas. Mayor Youngman replied these reductions to the original proposal were done based on what Mr. Sabol had said in the past regarding WalMart's concerns, while still addressing the Commission's goals and objectives. Commissioner Kirchhoff added the Commission tried to make specific changes regarding time and money because of Mr. Sabol's previous comments. Mr. Sabol then added he has some questions for BAE, too. Conference call placed to BAE, Janet Smith-Heimer and Ray Kennedy. Commissioner Kirchhoff opened the conversation by noting everyone in attendance has received BAE's revised scope of services report. . Mr. Sabol began by stating he has reviewed the revised proposal, and he has several questions. Compare this proposal with the Eureka study; what is different about this one? Ms. Smith-Heimer answered both the scope of services and the budget. Mr. Sabol stated he understands the difference in the travel expenses, for example, but he wonders why this study is more expensive. He felt most of the items the Commissioners were interested in were covered in the Eureka study. Ms. Smith-Heimer answered the Eureka study asked more questions that were broad in scope; they weren't asking the same type of specific questions, like quality of life or attraction of high-tech industries. Those types of questions were captured in phase 2. In order to accommodate working around those questions, there is a scope and cost difference. Mr. Sabol restated, this scope goes further than Eureka? Ms. Smith-Heimer responded both studies started with the same questions, but they are going in a different direction; task nos. 5 and 6 specifically. Mr. Sabol then asked if BAE typically and normally focuses in on broader land use issues. Ms. Smith-Heimer answered, "Yes, we do focus around those larger issues related to quality of life, community development and planning, and land use development. It is interesting to us and worthy of some discussion that those issues have been raised in connection with this study, which we believe are worthy issues." . Mr. Sabol noted it appears BAE considers the City of Bozeman to be your client. Ms. 05-31-2000 Special -- .--.- ----- ---- -------- -- - 3 - Smith-Heimer replied they have tried to remain noncommital on that point. Ordinarily, when . they have done big box studies in the past, the contract has typically been with the city. The funding may come from a variety of sources, including the applicant; but the contract is with the city. BAE finds that arrangement to be beneficial to both parties and promotes a more neutral discussion of the issues. Mr. Kennedy added occasionally they do work strictly for the developer, but the arrangements often are with the city. There are a variety of funding mechanisms; but in all cases the city is the client, and they are the ones who read the draft. BAE may receive comments from the developers, but ultimately the city is the controller of the document. They answer to the city, not the developer or the retailer. Ms. Smith-Heimer noted that since they did not get clear direction from anyone here, they are responding to all parties in an equitable manner. Mr. Sabol then inquired if BAE would have a problem with the City and WalMart being their clients jointly. This proposal strikes him that BAE is looking to the city for advice and direction. Shouldn't this be a joint effort between the City and WalMart? Ms. Smith-Heimer responded applicants have reviewed drafts in the past; BAE thinks it is important that a draft be submitted to all parties concerned so comments can be received before it is published. They are very comfortable with working collaboratively. However, they don't envision the City and WalMart signing a joint contract with them. Mr. Sabol stated he thinks the matter of the actual contracting party is immaterial; both are interested in the results of BAE's effort, with WalMart being the payee. He doesn't, however, want this proposal to be one where there will be ongoing discussion with the City that WalMart is not a part of. Ms. Smith-Heimer assured him that is not what BAE envisioned. . Mr. Sabol noted the theme of this proposal is the city is the client, and he can understand that. Page 4 speaks of the draft report which will be submitted to City staff for comment, then a final report will be submitted. Ms. Smith-Heimer offered they can add all interested parties to that phrase. Mr. Sabol asked if BAE will meet with the City and WalMart when they come to Bozeman. Ms. Smith-Heimer replied they would be happy to discuss the language if Mr. Sabol desires to do so. Mr. Sabol continued on to task no.1, saying BAE needs to develop the scope of services prior to arriving in Bozeman so that is nailed down. Ms. Smith-Heimer responded that is the boilerplate language BAE uses, which encompasses all parties. Mr. Sabol stated it needs to be modified; so when the contract is signed and they arrive in Bozeman, they hit the ground running. Mr. Sabol then asked if BAE ever considers submitting their report to peer review. Ms. Smith-Heimer answered they have played the peer review role several times, but they have not submitted their work to peer review. Mr. Kennedy added they have not been subject to that process in the past. People who have some position usually will retain their own consultant for review purposes, to decide if this is an objective report or if there are any mistakes. Mr. Sabol questioned if BAE would have a problem with that if it happened here. Mr. Kennedy . asked if Mr. Sabol is asking about the draft phase, reviewing it then? Mr. Sabol replied if he were to get their draft report and look at the data and think of Bozeman, he would understand 05-31-2000 Special ~- - 4 - what he read; but he may not be able to understand the analysis of the data and verbiage. He . and the Commissioners may need help from someone experienced to help in that regard. Mr. Kennedy responded BAE would hope that their report would be readable by everyone. They will not be writing their report for the experts; "they are not trying to write a PhD dissertation". Mr. Sabol noted in the BAE proposal, top of page 2, phase 1 addresses the more near term issues involving the WalMart application and its general expansion. What does that mean; is BAE analyzing the grocery store expansion? Ms. Smith-Heimer answered, "Yes, that is our main scope. In order to get to answer all the questions posed to us, we need to do some work to address the larger issues; it's not just looking at grocery stores." We were attempting to respond to a broader scope of questions asked by several parties, such as quality of life questions and subsequent other application issues. Mr. Sabol stated he understands the Commission and BAE have taken care of phase 2 issues. Ms. Smith-Heimer noted she tried to break it down by function areas, but to get to the Questions of what does this mean to Bozeman, they need to understand Bozeman's existing retail situation. Grocery stores are typically the anchors of small community shopping centers, so this expansion can have an impact beyond the grocery stores; it can affect the entire retail environment. That is why it is hard to extract all of that information. Mr. Sabol offered his overriding concern is "when we conclude this scope of services and we are all pleased with it, down the road somebody doesn't say I didn't know you were . going to do this or that." At the top of page 2, analyzing near-term issues involving the WalMart expansion, is that methodology different from what BAE would use for the balance of the scope of phase 2? Is grocery store impact imbedded in this study at all? Ms. Smith- Heimer responded because they are looking at this specific application and the longer term view of other types of retail that may come to Bozeman, they need to look at other components to determine what this area can absorb. When we are looking at retail, the point is not to go backward; it is about expansion and future stores that have a similar product diversity. We are trying to address a specific application and at the same time set the stage for the larger analysis. Mr. Sabol Questioned task no. 3, the most expensive task in phase 1, stating one of the problems he had with the first proposal was it was heavily weighted toward the trade area. The Commission has made an attempt to minimize the effort spent worrying about the trade area in their e-mail to you. Mr. Sabol thought they were concerned about the Bozeman community. He stated he realizes the community is part of a trade area, how big he has no idea; but he would like BAE to explain what that means and what part of that relates to the $7,500 cost. Ms. Smith-Heimer explained it is a semantic issue. They use the term "trade area" to mean the area they are analyzing; those who would shop at WalMart. The trade area will vary depending on the goods they are talking about because trade areas tend to vary by types of goods. WalMart's grocery store plus the department store makes for a much larger draw. To BAE, the trade area is the crux of the whole analysis. According to Ms. Smith- . Heimer, "It is not something beyond what you are concerned about; it is exactly what you are concerned with." This study is written more broadly because we are looking at more types 05-31-2000 Special - 5 - of retail items. The trade area is where we start from to do our retail analysis. . Commissioner Brown clarified that they can't stop at the city limits and call that Bozeman. Ms. Smith-Heimer verified that is correct; this grocery will draw from a larger area than the city limits. Mr. Sabol then asked how much emphasis and dollars would WalMart be spending on the trade area analysis. Ms. Smith-Heimer replied there is no way to segregate the issues. Mr. Sabol questioned page 3, task 4, stating he doesn't understand the paragraph with the single sentence. Mr. Kennedy explained that in previous studies they have conducted sometimes people are concerned that if a big retailer comes in, they will utilize the suppliers in a different manner, which could have indirect and other impacts on the local economy. Ms. Smith-Heimer cited an example saying local grocery stores may buy their dairy products from local vendors, while WalMart may buy their products elsewhere, which will have implications on the local economy. This has been an issue in other studies BAE has done, and they used the same language in this proposal as they have in previous studies. Mr. Sabol inquired about the time frame. BAE is talking of preparing the final report within six weeks of the authorization contract. Ms. Smith-Heimer stated she needed to revise that because of staff vacation plans. It should be amended to read that phase 1 will be completed within six weeks; phase 2 may take another week or two. Mr. Sabol requested BAE "nail that number down as we proceed toward a contract", acknowledging this schedule is far more acceptable than the first one. . Mr. Sabol then asked what does BAE see in this proposal that could be pared down a bit to reduce the cost? Ms. Smith-Heimer responded it is going to be difficult to pare it down too much more. It is at the point now that to call them in from out of town to do this work is a business decision on their end. This is about the size of study that works well for them; smaller studies at this distance is cost prohibitive. Mr. Sabol added the difficulty he is having is that the scope of this proposal goes beyond the Eureka study, which was a pretty inclusive study. This study costs $40,000 plus travel, and he was wondering why they couldn't get it pared down to the Eureka study. He asked if BAE is saying that is not possible at all? Ms. Smith-Heimer replied the question is can BAE answer all the questions posed to them for $30,000, because that is what it is going to take to do a good job. Mr. Sabol responded by saying, "So, there are too many questions to be answered to do a scope of services for $30,000?" Ms. Smith-Heimer answered, "Yes, this is a different study." Mr. Sabol offered, "This is still a bit on the high side; don't you agree?"; to which Ms. Smith-Heimer replied, "No!" Mr. Sabol continued, saying WalMart gives him his authority and direction, and they know about Eureka and have reviewed the Eureka study. They believe that should be adequate, which is why he needs to find out what the differences are. They are searching for a way to put some finality into this. Mr. Kennedy explained that in the case of Eureka, they . weren't really doing the same scope of services. The difference is BAE has been asked to answer a different set of questions, so these last two tasks are bigger in scope and require a 05-31-2000 Special - 6 - bigger budget. . Mr. Sabol then asked if the Commission really needs tasks 5 and 6, and is BAE on the high side for those tasks. Ms. Smith-Heimer responded it is really low. The original Commission direction was to study quality of life, land-use decisions, and technology issues. Mayor Youngman added the Commission is willing to scale back somewhat on tasks 5 and 6, but they are not willing to give them up entirely. It is fundamental to Bozeman's future to take these issues into account. Local economists have collected some information on that subject and written articles that can be given to BAE. That may be a data base that could help reduce the original study BAE needs to do. As for task 6, the Commission does want a feel for what keeps big box development in balance with the rest of the economy; but they could perhaps simplify it so it wouldn't require three growth scenarios. They are having trouble suggesting how to scale the study back because they are not economists. Ms. Smith-Heimer noted task 5 is a task of scope by interviewing people and is fairly labor intensive. BAE would be happy to look at what local economists have previously written, but they are proposing a very specific, labor intensive task. If this task is an issue, they will need to revisit their approach. They will need some direction from the Commission on that. Regarding task 6, BAE will be using work they have done previously and melding it in with what they have heard from the Commission. Even if they pare that back to just one scenario rather than multiple ones, it will still not bring BAE's costs down to Mr. Sabol's $30,000 figure. Mr. Sabol responded task 6 is not what he ever envisioned included in this study. He and the Commissioners need to talk about this issue. He sees this as an area where costs could be reduced. He acknowledged BAE needs to do an adequate job within the confines of what is reasonable under the . circumstances, but both tasks 5 and 6 seem unreasonably high to him. Ms. Smith-Heimer told Mr. Sabol they would start with an interview guide and show it to all parties concerned before they start work. Commissioner Kirchhoff asked if BAE would be interested in getting a better look at some of the studies that Mayor Youngman mentioned for task 5. Perhaps the studies are more detailed than BAE believes. Ms. Smith-Heimer replied, "Okay, it's almost an easier decision than that. I assume you don't have that information to your satisfaction or you wouldn't be talking to us." Commissioner Kirchhoff answered the Commission is interested in new data that hasn't been collected yet. They need information suggestive of future policy decisions. Mayor Youngman asked if the group here could talk among themselves and call BAE back. Ms. Smith-Heimer responded she has a meeting in 20 or 25 minutes. Mayor Youngman said they will call BAE back in 15 minutes if they have any more questions. Mr. Sabol suggested Ms. Smith-Heimer could "put your thinking cap on as to how you can bring some finality to this". This ended the first conference call. Commissioner Smiley noted numerous studies have been conducted about Portland . being a landlocked city, the homelessness increasing, and other problems. She will get that information. The Commissioners need to know what it means to have a landlocked city that 05-31-2000 Special -.. --" - 7 - is in trouble. Commissioner Frost replied Bozeman is not landlocked unless the county . land locks it. Mr. Sabol said it seems apparent to him that all of the Commissioners are pleased with the second proposal. He doesn't have a lot of problems with it, although it is on the high side; and he would like to see those costs reduced to the point he can sell it to WalMart. Preferably in the $8,000 to $10,000 range like the Canyon Study. His job is to look out for WalMart's interests, to make sure they get a fair study at a reasonable cost. He believes tasks 5 and 6 are too high and need to be whittled away. Commissioner Smiley stated she thinks if the Commission asks to have tasks 5 and 6 included, the City should pay for them. Mayor Youngman noted it is not an economic analysis that deals with Bozeman's critical elements if task 5 isn't included. From the beginning, the Commission has said quality of life is paramount. She could discuss taking out task 6, which is covered modestly in phase 1. Commissioner Kirchhoff stated it is his perception that BAE feels they are at the basement right now. Tasks 6 and 7 are what they are being paid to do; this is their expertise, and the local economists cannot do these. He suggested if WalMart agrees to phases 1 and 2 and signs the contract, maybe the City could reimburse $10,000 to WalMart. Mr. Sabol said the City has task 6 already being done in the Planning Department; they are doing the master plan now. That is Planning staff's job. Commissioner Kirchhoff noted the difference is BAE wants to suggest several models in which they will talk about mixes of retail versus industrial and retail's implications. This is what they are experts in. Mr. Kirchhoff continued, saying the City cannot fund two temporary planners as it is now; and he . doesn't know how they can realistically put that kind of pressure on the Planning Department. BAE is outside of the City, they are not beholding to this environment; this study could be objective. Commissioner Smiley reiterated that is why she thinks the City should pay for tasks 5 and 6. Commissioner Kirchhoff added that is why he thinks perhaps the City should reimburse WalMart $10,000 or so for this study. Mr. Sabol noted WalMart guards their dollars, even though they are the largest retailer in the country. Commissioner Brown stated he doesn't see any reason why the City should reimburse WalMart; WalMart shouldn't be quibbling over $10,000. If WalMart wants the study, it has to be done right with all the data and all the interpretation. Mr. Sabol asked Commissioner Brown if he understood him to say he doesn't want to give WalMart a credit. Commissioner Brown restated, "No, I don't!" Mr. Sabol noted this has come down to a principal thing with WalMart. I Commissioner Frost voiced his agreement with Commissioner Brown. WalMart has the money, and they are going to fight to save every penny they can; but tasks 5 and 6 have to stay, the study wouldn't be any good without those. The City doesn't have the money; we are cutting $600,000 from the budget as it is. Commissioner Frost, referring to task 6, stated he has seen those numbers in other master plans; and maybe the City can partially do task 6 in the Planning Department. However, they cannot be responsible for the entire task. That . is the only portion of this study he believes the City might possibly do on its own. He doesn't see refunding $10,000 to WalMart, although he might be receptive to a good faith effort to 05-31-2000 Special - 8 - reimburse something. Mayor Youngman noted if task 6 is dropped, the price of the study . would be around $36/000. City Manager Johnson suggested perhaps the two Associate Planners could collect that data. Mayor Youngman added the Commission needs less of the information found in task 6 to make their decision. Mayor Youngman stated the Commissioners need to decide what they want to do about task 6. It sounds like they could go for the $36/000 package and either pay for the task, have it done in-house, or just get rid of it. Mr. Sabol asked if she was suggesting taking task 6 out completely. Mayor Youngman replied she doesn't know for sure, but from her point of view, yes. The Commissioners will discuss this issue amongst themselves. By dropping task 6, the price of the study could possibly get down to $36,000. Mr. Sabol said to call BAE back and ask them to take another look at their bottom line; "it doesn't hurt to ask". Return call to BAE. Mayor Youngman told Ms. Smith-Heimer that the parties have negotiated and they have a proposal for Mr. Sabol to take back to WalMart. Task 6 is up in the air; it is undecided if it will be dropped, the City will pay for it themselves, or it will be handled within house. In any event, it should drop the cost of the study. This is the best common ground this group could come up with; does BAE have any alternative ideas to get the study done at that price tag? We are thinking of the proposal as stated today, minus task 6. Does that work for BAE? Ms. Smith-Heimer replied, "It works." Mr. Sabol asked if task 6 is taken out, is BAE still willing to come to Bozeman and do the other tasks for $36/000? Has BAE looked to see if they can do . any further price shaving? Ms. Smith-Heimer answered they had, but they couldn't come up with anything. Mr. Sabol repeated, "There is no more shaving on your side?" Ms. Smith- Heimer said, "No." Mayor Youngman stated as soon as Mr. Sabol has talked to WalMart and gets back to BAE, the Commissioners will also contact BAE. Time is of the essence, so hopefully that will be very soon. The City is ready to proceed as soon as WalMart is. Mr. Sabol asked Ms. Smith-Heimer to send him the standard form contract or letter of agreement, and they can clean up this proposal a little. Ms. Smith-Heimer asked if someone would be getting back to her as to how to handle task 6. She stated she could make a letter of contract without task 6, or she could wait to do the letter until the group works out task 6. Mayor Youngman told her to proceed with what the group has come together around. End of conference call to BAE. Mr. Sabol stated Commissioner Kirchhoff seems to have a lack of knowledge of what "enhanced" means. What Mr. Sabol envisioned when he said "enhanced" was "something more than is usually done". Right now, the plan the City has from WalMart is enhanced. WalMart is going to do more than they usually do. Commissioner Kirchhoff responded it has . to be compared to a reliable standard of site plan right now, and then some. This is in the entryway corridor and standards need to be "ratcheted up 1 0 percent". The WalMart Bozeman 05-31-2000 Special ------- ----- ----- -..-...--- - 9 - has now is not enhanced. Mr. Sabol responded the addition will have the same architectural . content as the current building. Commissioner Frost stated the City is looking at what the city is now as opposed to what it was when the original store was constructed. Mayor Youngman reminded Mr. Sabol his letter agreed to enhanced design review. Mr. Sabol assured the Commissioners WalMart will work with Planning staff, and they can tell WalMart what the City wants. WalMart wants something Planning staff is pleased with that represents Bozeman today. Commissioner Frost said Planning staff and the Design Review Board will present the enhanced project, and it will ultimately be up to the Commission to decide. Mayor Youngman noted they are just waiting to hear from WalMart on the contract and asked if the Commission wants to get this on the agenda now. City Manager Johnson asked if the City contracts with BAE or does WalMart? Assistant City Manager Brey answered the City may be referenced to in the contract, but it is not the contracting party. Mayor Youngman asked if the Commission is comfortable with this being a WalMart contract, with the City being a party to review. All agreed as long as staff concurs. Mr. Sabol stated he knows there are some things in this proposal WalMart won't agree to. However, these don't have anything to do with what was discussed here today. Adjournment - 1 :35 Dm There being no further business to come before the Commission at this time, it was moved by Commissioner Frost, seconded by Commissioner Smiley, that the meeting be . adjourned. The motion carried by the following Aye and No vote: those voting Aye being Commissioner Frost, Commissioner Smiley, Commissioner Kirchhoff, Commissioner Brown, and Mayor Youngman; those voting No, none. MA~~{t;f;:::: ATTEST: @./~ ROBIN L. SULUV AN - Clerk of the Commissron PREPARED BY: . ~M~~~(1~ KA EN DeLA THOWER Deputy Clerk of the Commission 05-31-2000 Special -------