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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2004-10-29 Minutes, City Commission, SPEC MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF THE CITY COMMISSION BOZEMAN, MONTANA October 29, 2004 ***************************** The Commission of the City of Bozeman met in special session in the Commission Room, Municipal Building, on Friday, October 29,2004, at 1 :30 p.m. Present were Mayor Andrew Cetraro, Commissioner Jeff Krauss, Commissioner Marcia Youngman, Commissioner Steve Kirchhoff, Commissioner Lee Hietala and Clerk of the Commission Robin Sullivan. The meeting was opened with the Pledge of Allegiance and a moment of silence. Sianina of Notice of Special Meetina Each of the Commissioners, in turn, signed the Notice of Special Meeting. Public comment No comment was received under this agenda item. Interviews of Municipal Judae candidates Candidate Kayle Jackson Please describe for us your career path and interests in this appointed/elected position. Do you intend on running for election in the next Municipal Court Judge campaign? Kayle responded that he likes serving as substitute judge but, had the judge position not come open in the manner that it did, is not sure he would have run for it. He stated that, if he is appointed and finds the position a good fit, he will run for office at the next municipal election. He noted that he applied to serve as substitute judge because he felt it would be interesting and gave him an opportunity to observe other lawyers. He has found that he may be better suited to the bench than private practice, and characterized his substitute judge experience as "continuing education credits". He recognized that, if he is offered the position and accepts it, he will be taking a cut in pay but has made the determination that he can absorb that cut. Mr. Jackson noted that most first offense DUls are good folks, and that the DUI was a mistake; those with multiple offenses typically have drinking problems with which a judge is better able to deal than a defense attorney is. He finds that making decisions on law, and determining what is right and fair is fulfilling for him. What do you see as the three (3) most important challenges facing the Municipal Court in the next few years? 1. Mr. Jackson stated the biggest challenge is administrative, noting that the staff is wonderful but is swamped with the daily work. He observed that they are interrupted constantly, and the warrants are the process that suffers as a result. He noted that if the system is not properly adjudicating crimes, the results are to breed disrespect and to not collect the revenues. 2. Kayle identified collections in general as another important challenge. He noted that the Court has recently implemented a system with a private collection agency for past due fines. The paperwork for this process is immense, and turning it over to a private agency will allow for those monies to be collected, with the additional costs of collection being borne by the defendant. He has given community service sentences, with those individuals being assigned to help with filing in the Municipal Court; however, 10-29-04 - 2 - confidential issues must be carefully protected in those situations. Also, he recently gave a community service sentence for carpet cleaning in the court area to a carpet cleaner. He suggested that additional community service options could be explored. 3. Mr. Jackson noted that, once the court became a court of record, any appeals to district court must be based on legal issues; and this has resulted in a transcription issue. He stated that the court is on a six-month deadline for prosecution, and trials are now set five to six months from the citation date, leaving little wiggle room for changing the trial date and often triggering the requirement for an instant decision. He stressed the importance of getting initial jury trials set for not more than four months out, recognizing that it may result in the need for Saturday court time for a few months to catch up on the backlog. How would you address them? Mr. Jackson noted that he has provided many of the answers above. He then noted that more staff time is needed to address the issuance of warrants, and suggested that another position could be funded through the implementation of a deferral fee. He stressed that an additional position is definitely needed to keep up with the workload, and noted that other options may include work/study or community service workers to do the boring things. Another option might be to hire someone through the high school business curriculum. During the past decade, the court has become busier and busier and the workload is going to continue to increase. Due to time constraints, the jail situation and the philosophy that justice needs to be swift to be effective, how are you prepared to deal with the continued increase of volume facing the court? Kayle responded that, historically, monies are provided for additional police officers, but no one thinks about the impacts that those additional personnel have on the criminal justice system. Also, a lot of crimes, such as DUls, are being enforced more vigorously, as law enforcement has "cast the net more broadly and with finer mesh". He noted that each of those cases must be carefully reviewed by the prosecutor and then go through a fairly lengthy court process; and he feels that this Municipal Court has done a good job of accomplishing that process except for the setting of the original trial date. He stressed that the burden is always on the State to complete the process in a timely manner, and it is important to do so for everyone involved. He cited a recent case in which he was required to dismiss a family/partner assault case because it was not processed within the six-month period, and that also triggered the release of a protective order for the victims. Mr. Jackson stated that, with the addition of one staff person, he believes the Court can handle the increasing workload. He does not envision the need for a second Municipal Judge for quite some time unless the Court assumes some of the civil cases that are now handled by the Justice of the Peace Court. He then cautioned that additional prosecutorial assistance may also be required in the near future, noting the prosecutor is now overwhelmed with the workload, which he anticipates is significantly higher than that incurred by any of the staff in the County Attorney's office. He acknowledged that not requiring the prosecutor to attend open court and initial appearances has dramatically reduced the impacts on that position; however, he has left the Judge often "shooting from the hip", without input from the prosecutor and sometimes without a substantial amount of information on the ticket. Give us three examples of alternatives you would consider for defendants in lieu of serving jail time. Mr. Jackson noted that a Judge noted that many people are released after posting bond, and recognized that a lot of controversy revolves around the releasing of those cited for DUI but stressed that few of those individuals receive a second DUI in the same night. He stressed that those who need to be in jail are those who are dangerous, those who are scary, and those who have done something and failed to follow through on prior sentencing. He recognized that to keep room for those individuals often results in releasing others on bond. He stated that the bonds for the Bozeman Municipal Court are the highest in the state, particularly for DUls. Mr. Jackson voiced his strong displeasure with minimum sentencing requirements, noting that those minimums shift the power from the judge to the prosecutor; and it is not uncommon to view the prosecutor position as an entry level job. He cited community service as an alternative, noting he would like to see it used more. He also noted that the pre-trial and post-trial services program can provide monitoring services 10-29-04 - 3 - for those sentenced to that type of program. He stated that there are various levels of service available through this program, which currently serves approximately 160 clients. What types of offenses would you consider these alternatives? Mr. Jackson stated he feels virtually all crimes handled in the Municipal Court would be eligible for these alternatives, noting that jails are "used way too much nationally". He suggested that the jails are meant to get habitual offenders and dangerous people like Shane Savage off the streets, not the youth who is cited once for possession of marijuana. He noted that, while jail may scare one, he does not believe a single defendant has found jail an experience that reformed him; rather, the experience of being arrested and handcuffed has had more impact. He then indicated he would like to see jail used more often for cases like methamphetamine dealers, which are not handled by the Municipal Court, or for those who repeatedly disobey the "don't beat your wife" order. For those cases handled by the Municipal Court, however, he feels there is generally something better than jail. An extremely high rate of the warrants issued out of the Municipal Court is for contempt. How do you plan to deal with defendants that repeatedly defy court orders and fail to pay their fines? Mr. Jackson stated that is what jail is for. He noted that, alternatively, he asks the defendant for all the money on him at that moment; and he would like to put civil liens on their material possessions, like cars, and then exercise that lien for failure to pay, if necessary. What, in your professional opinion, do you feel creates a most effective relationship between a Municipal Judge and the City's Police force? Kayle Jackson identified respect, both ways, as the important ingredient in an effective relationship. He noted it is imperative that the judge listen to what the officer has to say, and it is important for the officer to understand why the judge makes the decision he does. It is imperative that the case be resolved for the defendant if mistakes have been made. He noted it is critical that the judge treats the officer with respect, even when ruling in favor of the defendant. The City plans to conduct an outside review of the court's procedures to account for the proper use of public funds. What recommendations would you offer to complete this review? Mr. Jackson stated he knows less about the cash flow of the court than any of the other aspects, although he realizes there is a system in place. He noted that the cash flow is the responsibility of the Clerk of Court; and he would be comfortable with an audit by someone who knows financial management to ensure that that portion of the system is working properly. Please tell us how you view the relationship with the City administration when it comes to internal procedures related to financial, administrative and support functions? Provide any recommendations you may feel are important to enhancing this relationship. Mr. Kayle Jackson noted the Court is the third branch of government, separate and sovereign in its area. On the administrative side, however, he would like to see the Clerk of Court and her staff work closely with the City's administrative staff to ensure the Court operates well within the City's overall structure. He then noted that he is a lawyer and has not specialized in financial management; and he wants to ensure that that portion of the operation is properly addressed. Responding to questions from Commissioner Krauss, Mr. Jackson stated he does not see a bright line between administration and the more judicial functions, rather, he views it as a fuzzy line that he believes good people on both sides can work out. He noted the Clerk's first function is to make sure the Court is running correctly and that justice is done, which often involves good communication with other City staff. He recognized that there have been tensions between the City administration and the Municipal Court in the past; and he feels that those issues can be resolved 99 percent of the time without harsh disagreements. 10-29-04 - 4 - Briefly describe any ideas you feel could enhance the customer service of the Court and what you feel are key customer issues. Kayle Jackson cited the population of the community as the biggest customer of the Court, and it is his hope that those who have contact with the Court feel they have been treated fairly and beneficially. He noted that probably the worst part of the system is open court, where one might wait until noon for five minutes before the Judge. He noted that, if selected, he will look at ways to make open court a better experience, possibly through scheduling changes. He then indicated that other customer groups include the City Attorney's office and police officers; and he feels that informal discussions work well in those instances and can help to speed up the judicial process. What is your leadership and supervisory style? How do staff members respond to your style? Mr. Kayle Jackson noted he is pretty easy going, and has been on staff more than he has supervised. He stated that he has found a happy staff generally feels good about work and does a lot better than a staff that is not happy. He likes to make sure that he understands what needs to be done and then give staff the leeway to do the work. He does not want to become involved in the minutia, particularly if the work is being done well and on time. Responding to Commissioner Kirchhoff, Mr. Jackson stated that listening is on the top of his list of supervisory techniques. He noted that Clerk of Court Michelle Westberg currently holds monthly staff meetings, and he feels it is important for the Judge to attend those meetings and understand how the system is functioning. Discuss a time when your integrity was challenged or questioned. How did you deal with it? Kayle Jackson indicated that, when one's integrity is challenged or questioned, it is important to listen and then to explain one's actions. He noted the worst thing is to ignore it, and the second worst is to become defensive. He indicated that he cannot recall a time when his integrity was challenged as a lawyer; although he noted that in his personal life, he has been married and divorced, and that carries its own set of challenges. He then stated that a lot of big feelings are evident in court; and the Judge should be able to calm the situation and ensure the discussion does not degrade to personal attacks. Do you intend on devoting a full work week (40 hours per week, Monday - Friday) to the duties of Municipal Judge? Mr. Kayle Jackson noted that, at the present time, he is attempting to balance serving as Substitute Municipal Judge and maintaining his private practice. He stressed that the Judge position is not a 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Monday through Friday job, but often involves late night or early morning phone calls for items like search warrants. He noted that every week is different, and the best that can be expected is someone committed to getting the job done, whatever it takes. He recognized the history that has triggered this question and assured the Commission that he will be available whenever needed. He referred to his record as Substitute Judge, noting that he has cancelled meetings to attend Court on 20 minutes notice. Do you intend on continuing - or starting - a private law practice? How do you feel this would work with your duties as Judge? Do you see any potential conflicts with doing both jobs? Mr. Jackson noted that he has current cases before the Municipal Court, and he would hope to have those cases closed before being sworn in as Municipal Judge. He indicated that six of the eleven cases have settled and simply need to be submitted to the Court while the other cases need to be resolved. He then noted that he has not accepted any new Municipal Court cases recently in anticipation of this appointment process. Mr. Jackson stated that, while not illegal, he believes that practicing in other courts in Gallatin County would be tacky, and he has cases to close out in those courts as well. He does believe it is appropriate to handle cases in courts outside the County and would reserve the right to do so. He also expressed his desire to serve in a pro bono manner, stating he finds that type of work gratifying while giving him an opportunity to give back to the community. He indicated that his office is in his home; and it is important 10-29-04 - 5 - for him to retain an adequate number of cases to retain the tax benefits of that office. He concluded by noting that, as a private attorney, he has enjoyed unreasonable fees; but he does not anticipate carrying any significant practice outside the Municipal Judge position. Tell us why are you the best person for this job? Mr. Jackson noted that two remain in the pool, and he feels either candidate would serve well. He stated that he would bring with him a certain breadth of lifetime experience, since he did not attend law school until he was in his late 30s. He believes that this experience allows him to think outside the box a little more than one who went to law school immediately after college and to look at the bigger picture of the community. He then noted that he grew up in Bozeman. Mr. Jackson noted that when he worked at Senator Baucus' local office, he identified the North 19th Avenue interchange as a project to be funded through federal monies and developed ideas about how the corridor should look. He stated that when he went to work for that office, the primary purpose was providing local constituent services; his desire was to see what the office could do for Bozeman. He suggested that his broader experience will give him that same ability on the bench. If you were offered this position, what factors will you consider before making this decision? Kayle Jackson stated that he had made all of the necessary decisions before submitting his application. He noted that he has enjoyed "being paid unreasonably as an attorney". He indicated it is his assumption that the salary paid the Municipal Judge position will not change from its current level. He noted that he has some cases that will either require a delay in his being seated, if selected, or for which he may seek financial assistance if he finds it necessary to relinquish those cases to other attorneys. He concluded by noting that he will push hard for another staff position in the office to handle the increasing workload. What are your salary expectations for this position? Kayle Jackson responded that he believes the Municipal Judge should earn less than the District Court Judges but $1.00 to $2.00 per hour higher than the City Attorney. He then indicated that the current level of approximately $70,000 plus deferred compensation and insurance is acceptable, although he realizes it is roughly $20,000 lower than his present income. He noted that retaining enough private practice to continue depreciating one-fifth of his house as an office will also help to accommodate that loss of income. He stressed that, in return for the decrease in compensation, he will get a more interesting job. He concluded by encouraging the Commission to set the Municipal Judge salary prior to the filing deadline for the position, so that the candidates are aware of the compensation package. We anticipate appointing the new Judge effective November 1, 2004. If you are selected for this appointment, do you have any problems with this effective date? Mr. Jackson stated that he will be serving as Substitute Judge on Monday. He indicated that, before being sworn in as the full-time judge, however, he would like to clean up the outstanding cases for which he is the defendant's attorney and suggested that may take up to two weeks to complete. He noted that, in the meantime, he could serve as Substitute Judge except when his cases arise. He concluded by cautioning that this will be a difficult transition for him, as he shifts from his private practice to the Judge position. Is there anything you want us to know that we haven't addressed that you believe we should consider in making our decision? Mr. Jackson thanked the Commissioners for the opportunity to participate in this interview. Mayor Cetraro thanked Mr. Jackson for his answers and his honesty. Break - 3:05 to 3:30 D.m. Mayor Cetraro declared a break from 3:05 p.m. to 3:30 p.m. 10-29-04 - 6 - Candidate Karl Seel Please describe for us your career path and interests in this appointed/elected position. Do you intend on running for election in the next Municipal Judge campaign? Mr. Karl Seel noted that, after graduating from the University of Montana, he worked as an intern in the County Attorney's office, then worked as a prosecutor in the County Attorney's office. He then went into private practice, primarily concentrating on criminal and employment law, and became a contract prosecutor in City Court for about eight years, until the City hired an in-house prosecutor. He then continued in private practice and, approximately 21 months ago, the City accepted his bid to once again become the contract prosecutor. He noted that most of his 23 years in practice have been in criminal law, being just about evenly split between prosecution and defense. He views the Municipal Judge position as a natural progression. He concluded by stating that, if appointed, he will run in the next election. What do you see as the three (3) most important challenges facing the Municipal Court in the next few years? Karl See I identified keeping the Court going in a positive direction is extremely important. He also noted it is important to maintain a positive court for the youth who have contacts with the system, noting it is important that they feel that justice has been done and that they have been treated fairly yet held responsible for their actions. He also cited a cost efficient court system as a challenge, particularly in light of the increased volume of cases being handled. How would you address them? Mr. Seel stressed the importance of the judicial temperament noting that it is imperative for the Judge to keep control and maintain one's temper. He also noted that the Judge must be firm, treating repeat offenders and others with a harshness if necessary. He stated that the Judge must be able to determine the type of treatment to be used on younger people, to get their attention and to ensure they realize the importance of following the law and assuming responsibility for their actions. He indicated that he will draw on his experiences to determine the best approach to take in each individual situation. Responding to Commissioner Kirchhoff, Mr. Seel stated that, like other people, pOlice officers have different styles and approaches; and some officers are better in the areas of writing tickets and investigations than others. He stated it is important to know each officer's limitations and how he or she works. He also suggested that the Court can act as a good leader for the officers; and the Judge may even be able to provide good training and assist them in becoming better officers. During the past decade, the court has become busier and busier and the workload is going to continue to increase. Due to time constraints, the jail situation and the philosophy that justice needs to be swift to be effective, how are you prepared to deal with the continued increase of volume facing the court? Karl See I responded that it is important to move through court proceedings quickly; and he feels that his experience will allow him to "cut to the chase" a little quicker, without the need to research everything before ruling from the bench. He also noted that to rule quickly is important since it eliminates delays, rescheduling and requiring people to appear in court again. He recognized that there are limitations with the overcrowding of the jail, noting it is important to identify other incentives for defendants. He noted those may include deferred versus suspended sentences, community service, fines, and use of private companies that provide various levels of supervision. Give us three examples of alternatives you would consider for defendants in lieu of serving jail time. Mr. Seel identified community service, private supervision, and deferred versus suspended sentences can also provide incentives. He then noted that counseling and education can also be good alternatives, particularly where alcohol or anger are involved. He stated that some of the sentencing is required by statute, but a Judge may still have some options. 10-29-04 .-.--..-.-- ---........-- - 7 - Responding to Commissioner Hietala, Mr. Seel stated that some private companies provide programs that include different levels of supervision. He noted these may range from requirements to check in at certain times to electronic monitoring to random urine or blood tests. He stated these options allow for closer monitoring after the sentence and provide the resources for the Court to ensure compliance with sentencing. What types of offenses would you consider these alternatives? Karl Seel responded that a variety of issues must be considered when determining whether one of these alternatives will work, including statutory sentencing requirements. He also noted that repeat offenders may require different sentencing options to address the underlying problems. An extremely high rate of the warrants issued out of the Municipal Court is for contempt. How do you plan to deal with defendants that repeatedly defy court orders and fail to pay their fines? Mr. Karl Seel characterized incarceration as the ultimate sanction, noting that judgment must be used in determine when to use it and when not to use it. He recognized that the Municipal Court must share in the burden of not overloading the detention center, but must rely on community service and supervised programs as alternatives. He noted that repeat offenders and youthful offenders who have not yet "got the message" must be treated in a manner that gets their attention. What, in your professional opinion, do you feel creates a most effective relationship between a Municipal Judge and the City's police force? Mr. Seel identified mutual respect as critical. He recognized that pOlice officers are overworked and do an excellent job; and they gain satisfaction by knowing their work is respected by the court. He noted that if mistakes are brought to an officer's attention in an informational manner, it will help the officer do better work. He then indicated that he has a good working relationship with the police force, through work done with integrity, courtesy and respect. The City plans to conduct an outside review of the court's procedures to account for the proper use of public funds. What recommendations would you offer to complete this review? Mr. Karl Seel stated he has no inside knowledge of the finances of the Municipal Court. He recognized there will always be problems with collections in court, with a large outstanding balance being the result. He noted that focus on restitution may be lax, and may be one area that needs to be addressed. He noted that the new collections program through the private agency has been a good change, resulting in more staff time to address other issues. Please tell us how you view the relationship with the City administration when it comes to internal procedures related to financial, administrative and support functions? Provide any recommendations you may feel are important to enhancing this relationship. Mr. Seel stated that, even though the Court must maintain independence to ensure the integrity of the system, it is fundamental that there be a good relationship between City administration and the Court. He recognized that during Judge Carlson's administrations, there have been times of conflict that became public; and not much was to be gained by that. He observed that a lot of problems can be solved by better communication between the Commission, the administration and the Court, and voiced a willingness to communicate with some flexibility. He stressed the importance of not airing dirty laundry in public. Briefly describe any ideas you feel could enhance the customer service of the Court and what you feel are key customer issues. Mr. Seel noted the public wants to be treated with respect and treated fairly in the courtroom; that includes both defendants and victims. He stated staff does an excellent job in handling the public at the window. He has not heard any public outrage on how they have been treated, and he hopes to continue providing a positive experience. 10-29-04 . . --.. -8- What is your leadership and supervisory style? How do staff members respond to your style? Karl Seel stated he believes in leadership by example rather than micro-management. He noted that people respond to incentives differently; some need positive incentives while others need negative feedback. He stated that the Court staff know their jobs, although they may need to be reminded periodically of their responsibilities and their capabilities. He noted that if the supervisor shows courtesy and respect, they will filter down; and anything less will not be accepted. He concluded by stating that, while he will not micro-manage, he will make sure the work is done and that problems are controlled; and he will accept responsibility for those issues. Discuss a time when your integrity was challenged or questioned. How did you deal with it? Mr. Seel stated that his integrity was challenged when he was a junior in high school; and he responded by removing himself from the situation. He focused those negative emotions and energy into a different area, becoming involved in completely different activities and excelling in them. He characterized this as a turning point in his life, noting he found life is too short to fight with people; it is better to preserve one's integrity and to focus in a positive direction. Do you intend on devoting a full work week (40 hours per week, Monday - Friday) to the duties of Municipal Court Judge? Mr. Seel responded that he does. He noted the job is bigger than forty hours per week, and he will work the hours it requires. He indicated that he wants to retain the opportunity for private practice on the side, but assured the Commission that such a practice will not infringe on the Court's needs. Do you intend on continuing - or starting - a private law practice? How do you feel this would work with your duties as Judge? Do you see any potential conflicts with doing both jobs? Mr. Seel noted he anticipates retaining his private practice, even though he will seek re-election. He stated that he be vigilant to ensure that even the appearance of conflict will be avoided and, since he plans to conduct that practice outside Gallatin County, he does not anticipate conflicts will arise. Tell us why are you the best person for this job? Mr. Seel stated that, with 23 years' experience as an attorney, he feels he can be a good judge. He suggested that that experience will allow him to do things quickly, to recognize problems, and to deal with issues. He does not believe that he will have the "wool pulled over his eyes". Also, he feels that his relationship with law enforcement, the Municipal Court staff and other courts will be of benefit, particularly since it is important to have a good working relationship will all of those entities as well as other prosecuting offices. Responding to Commissioner Kirchhoff, Mr. Seel stated that, since he has worked equally in prosecution and defense, he does not believe the perception that he would lend his ear to law enforcement rather than the defendant would be realistic. He then suggested that, with his experience, he may have a tendency to hold law enforcement officers to a higher standard. If you were offered this position, what factors will you consider before making this decision? Mr. Karl Seel stated he has already determined that he can work with the current court staff, and he is comfortable working with law enforcement and the public defender's office. He noted the next question is whether the judge position is a good fit; and he believes his familiarity with the courtroom has given him a comfort level already. What are your salary expectations for this position? Mr. Seel stated he anticipates the salary will remain at its current level. 10-29-04 .______. n_ ....... . - u__... ------.----.. .. - 9 ~ Responding to Commissioner Kirchhoff, Mr. See I indicated that, in setting the salary for the Municipal Judge position, he feels it is important to look at the market place to see what a private attorney makes and what those in government earn. He then suggested that a more experienced attorney can get more work done than a younger, less experienced attorney can. We anticipate appointing the new Judge effective November 1, 2004. If you are selected for this appointment, do you have any problems with this effective date? Mr. Seel noted that, as the City's contract prosecutor, he is to give a thirty-day notice to terminate that contract. He suggested that, if the City is willing to work with him on that termination requirement, he could be prepared to serve as Judge beginning November 1. Is there anything you want us to know that we haven't addressed that you believe we should consider in making our decision? Karl Seel stated he feels that his growing up in Bozeman is important, noting that he attended high school and Montana State University, leaving only to attend law school. He knows some of the history of Bozeman and has a good sense of the community and its standards and morals as well as what it wants to be. He concluded by noting he would be proud to give something back to the community. Mayor Cetraro thanked Mr. Seel for the opportunity to conduct this interview, noting the Commission plans to make its decision at its Monday meeting. Discussion Commissioner Youngman suggested that the Commissioners conduct reference checks between now and the Monday Commission meeting; each of the Commissioners identified the references that they plan to contact. Adiournment - 4:28 D.m. There being no further business to come before the Commission at this time, it was moved by Commissioner Kirchhoff, seconded by Commissioner Hietala, that the meeting be adjourned. The motion carried by the following Aye and No vote: those voting Aye being Commissioner Kirchhoff, Commissioner Hietala, Commissioner Krauss, Commissioner Youngman and . those voting No, none. RO, Mayor ATTEST: (l~;I ~ ROBIN L. SULLIVAN Clerk of the Commission 10-29-04 ..n ...._.._.___